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NEW STORY TEN THOUGHTS FOR MONDAY MORNING

GabeD

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Aug 1, 2003
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1) So we know Eli Drinkwitz is recruiting at a level we haven’t seen around here before. The easiest way to quantify that is that last year’s class ended up 20th in the country, which is Missouri’s highest ranking ever. And that’s a basic way to quantify it in relation to other teams. But I was interested in looking a little bit deeper into how the 2021 and 2022 (so far) classes compare to the one that has previously been considered the best in Mizzou history. That was Gary Pinkel’s 2010 class, which was 21st in the team rankings and included six four-stars.

While the number of stars is one measurement, there are tiers within those star groups. 6.1 is a five-stars, 5.8-6.0 is a four-star, 5.5-5.7 is a three-star, under 5.5 is a two-star. So it’s not just about the stars, but are you getting upper tier three-stars, lower-tier four-stars, etc. For each of Missouri’s top three classes, I calculated the average recruit ranking, checked how many of the players were 5.6 and higher rated (upper two-thirds three-stars) and how many were 5.7 and higher (upper third-three stars or better)

2022 (9 so far)-5.725 average RR, 7 5.7 or higher, 3 4 stars, all 5.6 or up
2021 (23 total)-5.63 average RR, 11 5.7 or higher, 5 4 stars, 16 5.6 or up
2010 (23 total)-5.74 average RR, 17 5.7 or higher, 6 4 stars, 22 5.6 or up, no 2-stars


By these metrics, the 2010 class is still the gold standard for Mizzou, but 2022 so far is right on its heels. The average RR for that 2010 class was 5.74. I haven’t gone through every class, but I’ve got to think that’s Missouri’s best. There was one player in the class ranked as a 5.5 RR (Greg White) while the other 22 were 5.6 or higher. Seventeen of the 23 (73.9%) were 5.7 or higher, which basically means nearly three-quarters of the class was considered at least among the best three-star prospects in the country or better.

The 2022 class so far is just a tick behind that 2010 class, but has every player ranked as a 5.6 or higher. 77.7% so far are ranked 5.7 or better. The 2010 class had six four-stars, 2022 so far has three, but the class isn’t half finished yet

The 2021 group was good, but diving a little deeper, it would probably ON PAPER be behind these other two. It was probably the second-best complete class in Mizzou history (2022 is trending better but not there yet).

2) I was also interested in how this compared with the previous five years, where Mizzou recruiting had taken a hit. From 2016-2020, Missouri’s average class ranking was 44.6 (it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out why Mizzou has been a .500 program for the last five years).

But the actual numbers are even a little more startling than that. For those five classes, 46.9% of Missouri’s signees were 5.5 or lower. In other words, nearly half the classes for five full years were comprised of either two-star players or players who were 5.5 three-stars, which is considered the low end of that classification. By contrast, only 21.9% of Eli Drinkwitz’s 2021-22 classes fit in that category. Again, one of 23 from the 2010 class would have been in that group.

Recruiting rankings aren’t everything. Some of those sub 5.6 players went on to become very good players. But they do matter. The more highly ranked players you have, the better chance you have of hitting. Can you be the program that takes a bunch of low three-stars and below and turns them into star players? Sure. But it’s very difficult and very rare. Pinkel did it to an extent. Texas Tech and Washington State (not surprisingly, both under Mike Leach) did it. Kansas State did it for a period of time in Bill Snyder’s second run. And even those teams didn’t have sustained runs at the top of the sport. They threatened. They were there for a brief period of time. But they didn’t stay there. To do that, you’ve got to land more high-end talent. Missouri isn’t there by any means. But they’re taking steps in that direction.

3)The latest boost to those rankings was St. Charles defensive tackle Marquis Gracial, who chose the Tigers on Friday over Alabama, Arizona State, Iowa State and Oregon. He’s the No. 239 player in the country and the sixth-ranked defensive tackle.

Obviously, Gracial is a big get, both literally and figuratively (“freaking huge” as one person in the program told me). But more than Missouri landing him, what stood out to me is what he told Josh Helmholdt when asked why he committed: “He is doing something that has never been done at Mizzou, so being a part of that and changing something would be great.”

He in this case is Eli Drinkwitz. And that quote from Gracial is exactly what it’s going to take for Drinkwitz to sustain this recruiting long enough to take Missouri’s program up a notch or three. We’ve talked forever about how it just isn’t seen as cool to go to Mizzou by kids that grow up in Missouri. Sure, some of them do. But a lot of them want to go somewhere further away with a bigger name and more sizzle. And that’s not knocking those kids for that choice. But if Missouri is going to reach the place as a program that you guys want it to, it’s going to need guys like Marquis Gracial thinking like he did.

There are two basic pitches in recruiting. Pitch one: “We’re on top. You’re going to help us stay there.” Pitch two: “We’re not on top. You’re going to help us get there.” At the core, it’s always one of those two things. Drinkwitz right now is using pitch two because he has to. If he can get enough people to buy into it, he can use pitch one.

I remember Kim English telling me when he committed that he specifically wanted to go somewhere that he could build something. He didn’t want to join something that was already built. He wanted to be a part of building it. (It would be disingenuous not to mention that English’s other offers were Florida State, Miami, Cincinnati, Rhode Island and St. Bonaventure; the quote was great, but would he have felt that way if he had offers from Connecticut, Duke and Michigan State? Maybe, maybe not). Anyway, English helped build something. He was part of the winningest recruiting class in school history. That class is going to be remembered for a LONG time around here. Gracial says he wants to do the same thing. That’s what Drinkwitz needs more of.

4) Speaking of recruiting rankings, the final Rivals150 for the basketball class of 2021 came out. Missouri doesn’t have a player ranked in it. The 2020 class didn’t either. In fact, the current roster does not have a player who was ranked in the nation’s top 150 for his class and signed with Missouri out of high school (oddly, Tray Jackson and Mario McKinney are the lone two top-150 signees in the last four classes; one transferred midway through his freshman year and the other after it).

Missouri does have a top 150 player on the roster. DaJuan Gordon was No. 71 in the Class of 2019. He is the lone player who was ranked out of high school on Missouri’s roster for next year.

Again, that doesn’t mean they CAN’T win. Games aren’t played on recruiting rankings. It is my belief it is very tough to do so at a high level and I’m going to get into that in the next point. But for now, I want to focus on what this roster has. This, to me, is a fork in the road for Cuonzo Martin. One of three things is going to happen:

  1. He’s not going to win enough because he doesn’t have enough talent on the roster and he’s going to be without a job in two years
  2. He’s going to land some of that top 150 talent beginning with the 2022 class
  3. He’s going to take a roster full of players Rivals basically didn’t think much of and win at a high level
 
5) Is 3 above possible? Maybe. I wanted to look at whether it’s been done recently. I have three qualifications here: The team has to be in a high major conference (the Power Five plus the Big East), it has to have finished in the top four of the conference during the regular season and it has to have made it to the Sweet 16. I think that is the level at which Missouri fans would like to see the Tigers in the next couple of years. Whether it’s fair or not, I think that’s the expectation for the program. Not saying they have to be in the top four or make the Sweet 16 every year, but those are the goals. I’m looking only at high major programs because, yes, Oral Roberts can win three games at the right time of year and have a hell of a season, but over the course of 18 games, even this Oral Roberts team that went to the Elite Eight probably isn’t finishing in the top four of the SEC.

No team fit all three categories last season (I thought Creighton might, but the Blue Jays had four top-150 players). In 2019, Texas Tech made the national championship game. This is the best example I could find in the last three years. The Red Raiders had two top 150 players they signed out of high school. Kyler Edwards was ranked No. 140 and played in every game. Khavon Moore was ranked 50th, but played only two minutes for Tech. How did that team do it? Brandone Francis was a top 35 player who transferred from Florida, Deshawn Corprew a top 100 player who signed with Texas A&M, but went juco and ended up at Tech, Matt Mooney was a transfer from South Dakota who turned into a stud, Tariq Owens was a grad transfer and Jarrett Culver was a three-star who became an all-American. So is it possible? Yes. But even that Tech team had four top 150 players on the roster…this Missouri team has one.

Truthfully, I don’t want to go back through every Sweet 16 team until I find one that only has one top 150 player. I’m sure it’s happened before. But I’m also very sure it’s the exception. Which is why Cuonzo’s best path from those listed above would be option 2.

6) And speaking of option B, there is good news on that front.




I’m not going to call Mark Mitchell a must-get prospect or anything. But he is a potential game-changer for a program that is starving for one. He’s a top ten national prospect. He’s going to be pursued by everyone. He’s the type of player that makes everything I posted in the previous point irrelevant. He would be the biggest non-Porter recruit of Cuonzo’s time at Missouri and the biggest non-Porter recruit to be a Tiger period since at least Jabari Brown and probably actually quite a while before that. So we’ll see what happens.

7) It’s not been a good season for Missouri baseball. We know this. But it was a good weekend. The Tigers took two of three against No. 3 Mississippi State on the road in Starkville. That put them a game behind Auburn and Texas A&M for the No. 12 spot in the SEC standings, which is the last spot in the league tournament. Mizzou hosts Auburn for three next weekend. A&M hosts LSU. The Tigers have the tiebreaker over the Aggies. So they’ve got to beat Auburn at least twice and have A&M lose at least twice to LSU. If both of those things happen, they’ll at least get to be a part of the conference tournament. Hey, it’s something.

8) Missouri softball was part of the conference tournament and even in a loss, they gave fans something to remember. The Tigers were down two runs and down to their final strike on Friday against top-seeded Florida when Emma Raabe did this



The Tigers ended up losing the game, giving up two in the bottom of the 7th. And that’s too bad, but it shouldn’t take the shine off what Raabe did. That’s as clutch a swing as you can come up with. I’m not going to pretend I’ve watched scores of college softball games this year, but I’ve got to believe that one is at the top of the list for game of the year in the sport.

9) The result of the Tigers’ 38-15 season is a chance to host the regionals this weekend and perhaps even the Super Regionals next weekend. Mizzou is the No. 8 overall national seed and will host Illinois-Chicago, Iowa State and Northern Iowa in regional play in Columbia this weekend. Jaden Lewis will have coverage of the Tigers for us throughout the weekend and as long as they’re alive. The likely Super Regional opponent would be No. 9 Tennessee, who the Tigers just beat two out of three in Knoxville last weekend. The goal is clear for this team: Missouri wants a chance to play for the whole thing.

“We just played a World Series game," coach Larissa Anderson said after the game against the Gators. "I mean, Florida’s going to be in the World Series, and we just took them to the wire, and we had our opportunities to win it, and now we gotta gain that experience to be able to shut the door.”

10) This week’s reading recommendations:

NY Times: Has anyone actually summitted the world's tallest mountains?
The homeless chess champion is now a grand master
Washington Post: Mass Murder and the sin of silence
The New Yorker: The gatekeepers who get to decide what food is disgusting
SI: A lot of us are ****ed up: Inside the devastating gig economy of relief pitching
NY Times Magazine: I feel like I'm just drowning. Inside sophomore year in a pandemic (based around reporting from Hickman High in Columbia)
Columbia Missourian: As Native American mascots are removed, old wounds stay intact (by former PM staffer Briar Napier, a hell of an effort here for a senior in college; related, congrats to Briar, who graduated yesterday)
 
5) Is 3 above possible? Maybe. I wanted to look at whether it’s been done recently. I have three qualifications here: The team has to be in a high major conference (the Power Five plus the Big East), it has to have finished in the top four of the conference during the regular season and it has to have made it to the Sweet 16. I think that is the level at which Missouri fans would like to see the Tigers in the next couple of years. Whether it’s fair or not, I think that’s the expectation for the program. Not saying they have to be in the top four or make the Sweet 16 every year, but those are the goals. I’m looking only at high major programs because, yes, Oral Roberts can win three games at the right time of year and have a hell of a season, but over the course of 18 games, even this Oral Roberts team that went to the Elite Eight probably isn’t finishing in the top four of the SEC.

No team fit all three categories last season (I thought Creighton might, but the Blue Jays had four top-150 players). In 2019, Texas Tech made the national championship game. This is the best example I could find in the last three years. The Red Raiders had two top 150 players they signed out of high school. Kyler Edwards was ranked No. 140 and played in every game. Khavon Moore was ranked 50th, but played only two minutes for Tech. How did that team do it? Brandone Francis was a top 35 player who transferred from Florida, Deshawn Corprew a top 100 player who signed with Texas A&M, but went juco and ended up at Tech, Matt Mooney was a transfer from South Dakota who turned into a stud, Tariq Owens was a grad transfer and Jarrett Culver was a three-star who became an all-American. So is it possible? Yes. But even that Tech team had four top 150 players on the roster…this Missouri team has one.

Truthfully, I don’t want to go back through every Sweet 16 team until I find one that only has one top 150 player. I’m sure it’s happened before. But I’m also very sure it’s the exception. Which is why Cuonzo’s best path from those listed above would be option 2.

6) And speaking of option B, there is good news on that front.




I’m not going to call Mark Mitchell a must-get prospect or anything. But he is a potential game-changer for a program that is starving for one. He’s a top ten national prospect. He’s going to be pursued by everyone. He’s the type of player that makes everything I posted in the previous point irrelevant. He would be the biggest non-Porter recruit of Cuonzo’s time at Missouri and the biggest non-Porter recruit to be a Tiger period since at least Jabari Brown and probably actually quite a while before that. So we’ll see what happens.

7) It’s not been a good season for Missouri baseball. We know this. But it was a good weekend. The Tigers took two of three against No. 3 Mississippi State on the road in Starkville. That put them a game behind Auburn and Texas A&M for the No. 12 spot in the SEC standings, which is the last spot in the league tournament. Mizzou hosts Auburn for three next weekend. A&M hosts LSU. The Tigers have the tiebreaker over the Aggies. So they’ve got to beat Auburn at least twice and have A&M lose at least twice to LSU. If both of those things happen, they’ll at least get to be a part of the conference tournament. Hey, it’s something.

8) Missouri softball was part of the conference tournament and even in a loss, they gave fans something to remember. The Tigers were down two runs and down to their final strike on Friday against top-seeded Florida when Emma Raabe did this



The Tigers ended up losing the game, giving up two in the bottom of the 7th. And that’s too bad, but it shouldn’t take the shine off what Raabe did. That’s as clutch a swing as you can come up with. I’m not going to pretend I’ve watched scores of college softball games this year, but I’ve got to believe that one is at the top of the list for game of the year in the sport.

9) The result of the Tigers’ 38-15 season is a chance to host the regionals this weekend and perhaps even the Super Regionals next weekend. Mizzou is the No. 8 overall national seed and will host Illinois-Chicago, Iowa State and Northern Iowa in regional play in Columbia this weekend. Jaden Lewis will have coverage of the Tigers for us throughout the weekend and as long as they’re alive. The likely Super Regional opponent would be No. 9 Tennessee, who the Tigers just beat two out of three in Knoxville last weekend. The goal is clear for this team: Missouri wants a chance to play for the whole thing.

“We just played a World Series game," coach Larissa Anderson said after the game against the Gators. "I mean, Florida’s going to be in the World Series, and we just took them to the wire, and we had our opportunities to win it, and now we gotta gain that experience to be able to shut the door.”

10) This week’s reading recommendations:

NY Times: Has anyone actually summitted the world's tallest mountains?
The homeless chess champion is now a grand master
Washington Post: Mass Murder and the sin of silence
The New Yorker: The gatekeepers who get to decide what food is disgusting
SI: A lot of us are ****ed up: Inside the devastating gig economy of relief pitching
NY Times Magazine: I feel like I'm just drowning. Inside sophomore year in a pandemic (based around reporting from Hickman High in Columbia)
Columbia Missourian: As Native American mascots are removed, old wounds stay intact (by former PM staffer Briar Napier, a hell of an effort here for a senior in college; related, congrats to Briar, who graduated yesterday)

First
 
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@GabeD didnt Tennessee win the SEC with a team that would qualify here 3 or 4 years ago?
5) Is 3 above possible? Maybe. I wanted to look at whether it’s been done recently. I have three qualifications here: The team has to be in a high major conference (the Power Five plus the Big East), it has to have finished in the top four of the conference during the regular season and it has to have made it to the Sweet 16. I think that is the level at which Missouri fans would like to see the Tigers in the next couple of years. Whether it’s fair or not, I think that’s the expectation for the program. Not saying they have to be in the top four or make the Sweet 16 every year, but those are the goals. I’m looking only at high major programs because, yes, Oral Roberts can win three games at the right time of year and have a hell of a season, but over the course of 18 games, even this Oral Roberts team that went to the Elite Eight probably isn’t finishing in the top four of the SEC.
 
In you thoughts this morning you included this as part of your comparison of classes. "The 2022 class so far is just a tick behind that 2010 class, but has every player ranked as a 5.6 or higher. 77.7% so far are ranked 5.7 or better. The 2010 class had six four-stars, 2022 so far has three, but the class isn’t half finished yet."
How many more 4* offers does Drink have out there? We only have one on your OV list that isn't already a verbal for us.
 
How many more 4* offers does Drink have out there? We only have one on your OV list that isn't already a verbal for us.
Off the top of my head there is T Pride, DEs Wesolak and Scarlett, the OL from NE, the DL/OL prospect from MI that's coming thru on a team trip. Those aren't all officials I suppose.
 
I didn't go by class/year, just overall, but likely the best example for your inquiry would be the Badgers.

Believe Mizzou has had 12 4* players and 2 5* players since the Kim English class (not counting Jabari Brown or Mitchell...Tony)

Over that same time, Wisconsin has had 8 4* players and 1 5* (Dekker).

Badgers are 20-11 in NCAA tournament play missing one tournament over that time (2 with covid, though they were big 10 champs that year). Top 4 in league 10 of 13 times. 3 regular season titles.

Tigers are 4-7. 0-3 since the English class matriculated. 3 top 4 league finishes.

Can't win if you aren't good at the game of basketball. "Easiest" way to guarantee that is to land high school talent. Another way is to get talented players out of the portal, which has become more common and something that Martin has done pretty well at (there might be coaches with 2+ first team all-league transfers in the last 4 seasons, but would wager the list is short). Third way is to develop lightly recruited players into good basketball players.

None of those seem like high probabilities for the 21-22 season in Columbia. I'd wager a mediocre sum that the outlook is a fair deal brighter on 5/17/22.
 
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Astute observation.
Agreed--also lot easier to figure that out if they are playing in real D1 games versus trying to figure out how they will translate. Certainly doesn't mean that we shouldn't want to recruit higher level high school players, but I doubt Dru Smith was highly regarded at all, but he was a lot easier to evaluate as a transfer and I suspect he turned out to be a top 100 player at the college level.
 
Wow, I can't believe we're actually going to land Mark Mitchell
We’re not..........that’s probably why you can’t believe it.

You trust your eyes and there’s nothing that Cuonzo has done to allow a rational person to believe he will land a 5 Star without hiring his dad as a coach.

Cuonzo......Give up on running your Boys & Girls Club and find a bagman. Embrace the cesspool. You can’t clean up the filth that is college basketball.
 
We’re not..........that’s probably why you can’t believe it.

You trust your eyes and there’s nothing that Cuonzo has done to allow a rational person to believe he will land a 5 Star without hiring his dad as a coach.

Cuonzo......Give up on running your Boys & Girls Club and find a bagman. Embrace the cesspool. You can’t clean up the filth that is college basketball.
Was Jaylen Brown's dad on staff at Cal? Legitimate question
 
Astute observation.

If my count is right, of the top 50 players in each of the last two rivals 150's, 21 in each appeared in the 2021 tournament with the team they signed for.

Top 50 is arbitrary, as is any other cutoff point, but I definitely feel as if the dynamic has shifted over recent years.

The few teams that are going to land blue chip after blue chip are going to be good, more often than not. The programs that can rely on that as a strategy are rather limited. Teams that intelligently grab guys they can develop out of the high school ranks, supplement that with transfers as needed and keep those players around for multiple years are going to have the upper hand.

Looking at it as blue chips or bust is narrow-minded imo. You just have to find your rhythm in getting guys that work. Successful programs do just that in a variety of ways.
 
If my count is right, of the top 50 players in each of the last two rivals 150's, 21 in each appeared in the 2021 tournament with the team they signed for.

Top 50 is arbitrary, as is any other cutoff point, but I definitely feel as if the dynamic has shifted over recent years.

The few teams that are going to land blue chip after blue chip are going to be good, more often than not. The programs that can rely on that as a strategy are rather limited. Teams that intelligently grab guys they can develop out of the high school ranks, supplement that with transfers as needed and keep those players around for multiple years are going to have the upper hand.

Looking at it as blue chips or bust is narrow-minded imo. You just have to find your rhythm in getting guys that work. Successful programs do just that in a variety of ways.
Totally agree. I don't disagree that if you sign 3 or 4 top 100 players every single year, odds are enough of them will be good enough that you will have a very good program. Not that it matters, but 247 had Dru Smith as number 472 overall and the 95th ranked point guard--obviously poorly evaluated coming out of high school, but relatively easy to evaluate after his play at Evansville. As long as there is a one time transfer available, I suspect programs that can't routinely rely on getting multiple top 100s every year, which is a limited number of programs, will start to rely more heavily on the transfer portal. Much more valuable source of talent.
 
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If my count is right, of the top 50 players in each of the last two rivals 150's, 21 in each appeared in the 2021 tournament with the team they signed for.

Top 50 is arbitrary, as is any other cutoff point, but I definitely feel as if the dynamic has shifted over recent years.

The few teams that are going to land blue chip after blue chip are going to be good, more often than not. The programs that can rely on that as a strategy are rather limited. Teams that intelligently grab guys they can develop out of the high school ranks, supplement that with transfers as needed and keep those players around for multiple years are going to have the upper hand.

Looking at it as blue chips or bust is narrow-minded imo. You just have to find your rhythm in getting guys that work. Successful programs do just that in a variety of ways.

I agree. My basic point was if Cuonzo does it without top 150 talent he may not be the first but he will be close to it. But I think overall you and I pretty much agree on everything posted ITT
 
I agree. My basic point was if Cuonzo does it without top 150 talent he may not be the first but he will be close to it. But I think overall you and I pretty much agree on everything posted ITT
I generally agree with this, but I do think the transfer portal has changed the dynamic somewhat significantly.
 
I agree. My basic point was if Cuonzo does it without top 150 talent he may not be the first but he will be close to it. But I think overall you and I pretty much agree on everything posted ITT

I would be absolutely floored if next year's squad met your criteria from above of a top 4 league finish and a sweet 16. So yes, I agree fully on that.

I don't expect 5 freshman with their recruiting pedigree plus the 4 underclassmen transfers we've added in addition to our returners to amount to that.

My point is simply that landing elite recruiting classes will never be a viable strategy for Mizzou, and that's ok, because there's other ways to win a truck load of ball games. Maybe Cuonzo can, maybe he can't. I've seen enough examples to know that whatever avenue you choose, it's a matter of execution, not strategy. Due to his success in raising the program from the dead, he'll have the opportunity to go the development/transfer route.
 
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I would be absolutely floored if next year's squad met your criteria from above of a top 4 league finish and a sweet 16. So yes, I agree fully on that.

I don't expect 5 freshman with their recruiting pedigree plus the 4 underclassmen transfers we've added in addition to our returners to amount to that.

My point is simply that landing elite recruiting classes will never be a viable strategy for Mizzou, and that's ok, because there's other ways to win a truck load of ball games. Maybe Cuonzo can, maybe he can't. I've seen enough examples to know that whatever avenue you choose, it's a matter of execution, not strategy. Due to his success in raising the program from the dead, he'll have the opportunity to go the development/transfer route.

yeah I don’t think he has to land elite recruiting classes but I do think he has to land better ones...and that includes the transfer portal. Maybe Coleman will become the next Dru Smith and maybe he can find a guy like that every year. But it seems unlikely. And even if he does it’s probably not enough (we got proof of that last year). He needs top 150 talent for sure , top 100 talent with regularity and at times top 50 talent. Whether he gets those guys as freshmen or transfers doesn’t really matter. But he has to get them somewhere...which he hasn’t as of late
 
Is it fair to say that Mitchell and Shaw might be the most important recruits in CM five years?
 
yeah I don’t think he has to land elite recruiting classes but I do think he has to land better ones...and that includes the transfer portal. Maybe Coleman will become the next Dru Smith and maybe he can find a guy like that every year. But it seems unlikely. And even if he does it’s probably not enough (we got proof of that last year). He needs top 150 talent for sure , top 100 talent with regularity and at times top 50 talent. Whether he gets those guys as freshmen or transfers doesn’t really matter. But he has to get them somewhere...which he hasn’t as of late
The top 150 players are mostly the reason last season fell on its face. If Mark Smith and Watson played close to what you would expect it’s a really good season instead of just an ok season.
 
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While it's true we only have one top 150 recruit on our roster, I don't think it's as dire as that. Brookshire is a 4 star on ESPN. Keita was ranked in the top 150 pre-injury. Durugordon had some decent offers so he's not that far outside of the top 150. Coleman and Davis were conference freshmen of the year, so they should be pretty good. DeGray put up decent numbers at UMass.

To be clear I think it's probably an NIT type team, but I don't think it's that bad on talent. Let's not forget we've brought in lots of different top 150 guys who ended up as total duds, so rankings are a bit of a crapshoot outside of the top 50 or so.
 
Top 150 recruits that didn’t pan out for us:

Tray Jackson
Mario McKinney
Torrence Watson
Michael Porter Junior
Blake Harris
C.J. Roberts
K.J. Walton
Montaque Gill-Caesar
Namon Wright
Jakeenan Gant
Keanau Post
Wes Clark
Negus Webster-Chan
Keon Lawrence
Kalen Grimes
Glen Dandridge
Jason Horton

So I'm a little skeptical that the key to being good at basketball is getting kids that rivals rated as top 150 players coming out of high school. Maybe getting transfers that were productive at other schools might turn out to be a better strategy for us.
 
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Top 150 recruits that didn’t pan out for us:

Tray Jackson
Mario McKinney
Torrence Watson
Michael Porter Junior
Blake Harris
C.J. Roberts
K.J. Walton
Montaque Gill-Caesar
Namon Wright
Jakeenan Gant
Keanau Post
Wes Clark
Negus Webster-Chan
Keon Lawrence
Kalen Grimes
Glen Dandridge
Jason Horton

So I'm a little skeptical that the key to being good at basketball is getting kids that rivals rated as top 150 players coming out of high school. Maybe getting transfers that were productive at other schools might turn out to be a better strategy for us.
That's an unfortunate list, for sure. On the flip side, we're talking about a program that has 0 conference titles, 2 conference tournament titles, just 3 seasons that were good enough to get better than an 8/9 seed, and just 2 second-weekend runs in the NCAA Tournament... in the last 27 seasons.

So... one could make the argument that there may be dots to connect between the fact that Missouri has not had much luck recruiting the the Top 150, and the fact that they have not really had much high level success in nearly 3 decades. Especially considering that the two really good teams that Missouri has had over that time frame both featured multiple Top 150 guys (2005 had 5 -- Carroll, Lyons, Tiller, English and Denmon... and 2012 had 4 -- Denmon, English, Dixon, Pressey along with the #1 JUCO recruit in Ratliffe).

I actually agree, to an extent, that the transfer market is changing the paradigm somewhat when it comes to recruiting. But I also agree with Gabe that the program is unlikely to ever become what most of us are hoping it can be without an uptick in the level of recruiting.
 
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While it's true we only have one top 150 recruit on our roster, I don't think it's as dire as that. Brookshire is a 4 star on ESPN. Keita was ranked in the top 150 pre-injury. Durugordon had some decent offers so he's not that far outside of the top 150. Coleman and Davis were conference freshmen of the year, so they should be pretty good. DeGray put up decent numbers at UMass.

To be clear I think it's probably an NIT type team, but I don't think it's that bad on talent. Let's not forget we've brought in lots of different top 150 guys who ended up as total duds, so rankings are a bit of a crapshoot outside of the top 50 or so.
I actually kind of agree here, too. I'm optimistic about the group of guys that Cuonzo has brought in. But I think this statement is the one we're probably debating ITT...

"To be clear I think it's probably an NIT type team, but I don't think it's that bad on talent."

Maybe you meant it's a talented group that will just be too young/inexperienced to really put it together this season, but can grow into something more in future seasons. Otherise, I think this is kind of the issue. The talent on this team isn't that bad, but they also seem like they may have a bit of a low ceiling if they aren't supplemented with some higher level talent added in the 2022 or 2023 classes.

In other words, they can be respectable with classes like the one they've added this year. But will classes like this one build the type of teams Gabe mentioned in his thoughts... not impossible, but a longer shot than having some higher rated kids.
 
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I actually kind of agree here, too. I'm optimistic about the group of guys that Cuonzo has brought in. But I think this statement is the one we're probably debating ITT...

"To be clear I think it's probably an NIT type team, but I don't think it's that bad on talent."

Maybe you meant it's a talented group that will just be too young/inexperienced to really put it together this season, but can grow into something more in future seasons. Otherise, I think this is kind of the issue. The talent on this team isn't that bad, but they've also seem like they may have a bit of a low ceiling if they aren't supplemented with some higher level talent added in the 2022 or 2023 classes.

In other words, they can be respectable with classes like the one they've added this year. But will classes like this one build the type of teams Gabe mentioned in his thoughts... not impossible, but a longer shot than having some higher rated kids.
What I mean is I think NIT is all you can safely expect of next year's team. But the team will be very young, a lot of freshmen and sophomores, so the potential is there to do better than that in future years. But of course it would help to bring in better talent in future years as well, whether that be high end high school talent or productive transfers.
 
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I agree. My basic point was if Cuonzo does it without top 150 talent he may not be the first but he will be close to it. But I think overall you and I pretty much agree on everything posted ITT
Me when the when Cuonzo beats all odds and makes us an elite team without top tier talent:

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In you thoughts this morning you included this as part of your comparison of classes. "The 2022 class so far is just a tick behind that 2010 class, but has every player ranked as a 5.6 or higher. 77.7% so far are ranked 5.7 or better. The 2010 class had six four-stars, 2022 so far has three, but the class isn’t half finished yet."
How many more 4* offers does Drink have out there? We only have one on your OV list that isn't already a verbal for us.

Some of the three stars may get bumped to 4 stars. Similar to Macon last year. He was a three star when he committed (March 2020) and a four star when he signed (December 2020).
 
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