Referee home cooking?

[mcangus52]

I know it is hard for me to be unbiased, but curious if others think we ever get the benefit of "home" refereeing like I am sure I see elsewhere. When is the last time anything like last night ever happened at Mizzou Arena in our favor?

Followup question if you agree with my premise, why?
1) the SEC still hasn't accepted us? (although I keep being told there are no "SEC" refs)
2) Coach Martin's belief in respecting the refs as men doing their job and not "working" them as he often gets criticized for here?
3) CCM style of hard nosed defense will never get the benefit of the doubt?
4) We haven't had 5 star players or "star power" that get the advantage that it seemed Cooper got last night.

Again, I freely admit I see things thru black and gold glasses. But I try my best to be fair and often point out to my wife who is a bigger BB homer than me, that a call was correct. I just don't see us get the advantage in Mizzou Arena I believe I see when we are on the road many times.

Maybe Cobra has some stats to validate or disprove? Seems there are stats for everything now if you know where to look.

 

[WaggleQB]

I thought it was bad both ways last night, hard game to watch with all of the stoppages, some really bad calls.

Cooper was too fast for most of our guys and also got some really cheap calls.

 

[Willis26]

Refs sucked, but if Mizzou gets anything from the X and Mark Smith combo at guard Mizzou has a chance to steal the game.

 

[TayDiggs06]

If I had more time I would go back and look at all the 50/50 calls. The block charge call in CBB is a crapshoot, we all know that, but I’d like to see the percentages last night on who got the calls and at what rate. Add in to that the loose ball dive foul on Mitch, the play at the rim where Tilmon is straight up but in the restricted area. That could have been an easy no call. The list goes on. When you have teams making runs, more than anything, those calls have such an effect on momentum. We were never allowed to get over the hump as those 50/50 calls seemingly always went against us.

 

[Ramjet44]

Shariffe going off is good for the TV ratings. What better way to pad the stats than some freebies at the free throw line.

 

[TayDiggs06]

Another thing I will add to this, Cuonzo absolutely works the refs. But he does it in the opposite way in which Pearl does it. I posted this last night in a thread, but after 2 early calls on Auburn, Pearl went insane. The next seven whistles went against Mizzou. To me that’s a case of the officials not wanting him on their asses all night. Should paid college officials be able to handle that and not let it effect their jobs? 100%. But I don’t think that’s the case.

 

[mitchell4d]

Missouri has attempted more free throws per game in conference play than any other team in the SEC this season. Last night was bad. I don't think there's some widespread conspiracy against Mizzou

 

[GabeD]

If I had more time I would go back and look at all the 50/50 calls. The block charge call in CBB is a crapshoot, we all know that, but I’d like to see the percentages last night on who got the calls and at what rate. Add in to that the loose ball dive foul on Mitch, the play at the rim where Tilmon is straight up but in the restricted area. That could have been an easy no call. The list goes on. When you have teams making runs, more than anything, those calls have such an effect on momentum. We were never allowed to get over the hump as those 50/50 calls seemingly always went against us.

The foul on Tilmon is a foul. He's in the circle. The loose ball foul on Mitch was awful. I know they called a similar one on Auburn a few minutes before which was also awful (happened on the wing outside the three point line. Dru and an Auburn guy went for the ball at basically the same time, looked like the Auburn guy got there a half second sooner, but kind of cut Dru's legs out and they called a foul on Auburn. I thought it was a bad call.

I feel two ways about this:

1) Cooper got a LOT of calls and many of them shouldn't have been called
2) Once it became obvious to everyone they were being called, you have to tell your guys to back off and do something different. I assume the counterargument here is you still have to play defense and at times Cooper looked to just be running into Mizzou players to create contact and I'm not sure how you avoid that and I'll listen to that argument on some of them too. I'm just saying that at some point it became obvious what the officiating was like and since you're not going to be able to control the officials, maybe there's something that you can control that will impact it. Might not have worked. Not a blanket defense of the refs by any means. Just throwing out some ideas.

 

[mizzoucobra]

Missouri has attempted more free throws per game in conference play than any other team in the SEC this season. Last night was bad. I don't think there's some widespread conspiracy against Mizzou

Agreed. No conspiracy. It's bad officiating, nothing more.

Take for instance last night, Auburn's free throw rate was 80.0. A truly heinous figure. For context, the #1 team in highest FTR this year is at 45.0. Median is around 35.0. So 80.0 last night.

There have been two games since Martin has arrived that cracked 80. Last night, and last year against auburn when they sported a 101.2 FTR. Auburn attempted 46 free throws in that game, to only 45 field goals (hence the 101.2 number).

Anthony Jordan officiated both games.

 

[drewayers24]

The foul on Tilmon is a foul. He's in the circle. The loose ball foul on Mitch was awful. I know they called a similar one on Auburn a few minutes before which was also awful (happened on the wing outside the three point line. Dru and an Auburn guy went for the ball at basically the same time, looked like the Auburn guy got there a half second sooner, but kind of cut Dru's legs out and they called a foul on Auburn. I thought it was a bad call.

I feel two ways about this:

1) Cooper got a LOT of calls and many of them shouldn't have been called
2) Once it became obvious to everyone they were being called, you have to tell your guys to back off and do something different. I assume the counterargument here is you still have to play defense and at times Cooper looked to just be running into Mizzou players to create contact and I'm not sure how you avoid that and I'll listen to that argument on some of them too. I'm just saying that at some point it became obvious what the officiating was like and since you're not going to be able to control the officials, maybe there's something that you can control that will impact it. Might not have worked. Not a blanket defense of the refs by any means. Just throwing out some ideas.

The worst call of the night came when Mizzou was up 7 in the second half. Mizzou played very good defense for about 28 seconds and Mitch took what looked like a charge to me, instead they called nothing. Then about 3 seconds later when it was either going to be a shot clock violation or a chucked up shot by Cooper the baseline ref comes running in and calls a block. I'm pretty sure I even heard Mitch yell what the hell after the call.

After that it was all down hill, Auburn ended up hitting a 3 on the inbounds play, Mizzou turned the ball over their next possession and Auburn scored again. to me that was the turning point of the game and was by far the worst call of the night, and there were certainly a lot of terrible calls.

 

[seventhchildfifthson]

Missouri has attempted more free throws per game in conference play than any other team in the SEC this season. Last night was bad. I don't think there's some widespread conspiracy against Mizzou

Thank you! As a former high school ref, I am aware the refs make bad calls. The repeated conspiracy posts are comical. No ref was told to call it for Auburn, much less from Birmingham. This isn't a Buffalo Wild Wings commercial.

 

[TayDiggs06]

Missouri has attempted more free throws per game in conference play than any other team in the SEC this season. Last night was bad. I don't think there's some widespread conspiracy against Mizzou

I don’t believe there to be either.

Thank you! As a former high school ref, I am aware the refs make bad calls. The repeated conspiracy posts are comical. No ref was told to call it for Auburn, much less from Birmingham. This isn't a Buffalo Wild Wings commercial.

I’m certainly not suggesting a conspiracy. Cobras numbers above point to exactly what I saw last night. A disproportionate number of fouls called. Call it the Pearl effect. Call it the Anthony Jordan effect. Call it home cooking, whatever. I think it’s fair for reasonable people to look at that game for it what it was without suggesting a conspiracy.

 

[mcangus52]

"Thank you! As a former high school ref, I am aware the refs make bad calls. The repeated conspiracy posts are comical. No ref was told to call it for Auburn, much less from Birmingham. This isn't a Buffalo Wild Wings commercial. "

I was afraid that my post would be a referendum on last night and that is not what I intended. I have watched Mizzou Bb for over 50 years now and realize that nights like last night happen. My real question is do they ever happen at Mizzou Arena in our favor?

And a follow up, I posted 4 possibilities of what may be a myriad of reasons they happen, you ruled out the one about SEC having it against us, and I agree with that. As a former ref what are your thoughts on the other possibilities?

 

[seventhchildfifthson]

"Thank you! As a former high school ref, I am aware the refs make bad calls. The repeated conspiracy posts are comical. No ref was told to call it for Auburn, much less from Birmingham. This isn't a Buffalo Wild Wings commercial. "

I was afraid that my post would be a referendum on last night and that is not what I intended. I have watched Mizzou Bb for over 50 years now and realize that nights like last night happen. My real question is do they ever happen at Mizzou Arena in our favor?

And a follow up, I posted 4 possibilities of what may be a myriad of reasons they happen, you ruled out the one about SEC having it against us, and I agree with that. As a former ref what are your thoughts on the other possibilities?

Regarding it happening at home, one would have to ask the visiting team. I'm sure some teams feel like they got hosed at Mizzou. That is why we are fans. We don't always see thing objectively. I had more than one coach say to me" I get the call, I just need to get the troops fired up". I told one coach "This isn't Hoosiers". Another thing. Basketball is so fast with shot clock, better athletes, etc. I saw no anti-Mizzou calls last night. I saw some bad calls. I also saw Mizzou never adjust. If I ever thought/knew refs were throwing games, I would be done with sports.

 

[ski-tiger]

There have been games, especially last year at MA when Pinson was going off and getting tons of calls at the rim.

We just view those as attacking and getting to the rim. And certainly there is some contact. I'm sure the other teams don't agree and think its home cooking.

I have said that Cooper was treated differently than any other player on the court, and that is my complaint.

But Tilmon got away with a LOT of fouls because the refs swallowed their whistles for everyone by Cooper. So does Tilmon go 35 mins at 21-10-6, in may be his most complete game ever without the refs letting them play? I doubt it.

So I get the complaining and was pissed off last night. But both can be true (see Gabe's general 'it didn't affect the W/L" argument). Refs were bad, many bad calls or no calls both ways. Cooper was treated like a protected child. Is outcome any different if they call the inside fouls but let more go on Cooper? Probably not.

 

[mcangus52]

Thanks for the input, I have a friend who was a ref, and now evaluates refs at games at PSU in Pittsburg Kansas, always enjoy sitting with him and visiting about what he sees as a former ref.

Follow up again, do you believe refs ever look up at the scoreboard and see an imbalance in number of fouls on one team and even tend to even it up? Don't think it happened last night but I tend to believe it happens.

 

[rubyreds111]

I don't thing it was home cooking. Just another time when SEC refs are shitty. Has been that way for a long time. I hope they do the Baylor/Auburn game. We will see if they are able to swallow their whistles.

 

[BnGSpecial]

I know it is hard for me to be unbiased, but curious if others think we ever get the benefit of "home" refereeing like I am sure I see elsewhere. When is the last time anything like last night ever happened at Mizzou Arena in our favor?

Followup question if you agree with my premise, why?
1) the SEC still hasn't accepted us? (although I keep being told there are no "SEC" refs)
2) Coach Martin's belief in respecting the refs as men doing their job and not "working" them as he often gets criticized for here?
3) CCM style of hard nosed defense will never get the benefit of the doubt?
4) We haven't had 5 star players or "star power" that get the advantage that it seemed Cooper got last night.

Again, I freely admit I see things thru black and gold glasses. But I try my best to be fair and often point out to my wife who is a bigger BB homer than me, that a call was correct. I just don't see us get the advantage in Mizzou Arena I believe I see when we are on the road many times.

Maybe Cobra has some stats to validate or disprove? Seems there are stats for everything now if you know where to look.

I just think many of us still relate to a conference where the refs just watch you play and bang. The SEC continues to call many more fouls then folks were used to in the big 8. I would love to know The average amount of files called per game by Conference. I’m just too lazy to look it up I guess

 

[drbrhc]

The foul on Tilmon is a foul. He's in the circle. The loose ball foul on Mitch was awful. I know they called a similar one on Auburn a few minutes before which was also awful (happened on the wing outside the three point line. Dru and an Auburn guy went for the ball at basically the same time, looked like the Auburn guy got there a half second sooner, but kind of cut Dru's legs out and they called a foul on Auburn. I thought it was a bad call.

I feel two ways about this:

1) Cooper got a LOT of calls and many of them shouldn't have been called
2) Once it became obvious to everyone they were being called, you have to tell your guys to back off and do something different. I assume the counterargument here is you still have to play defense and at times Cooper looked to just be running into Mizzou players to create contact and I'm not sure how you avoid that and I'll listen to that argument on some of them too. I'm just saying that at some point it became obvious what the officiating was like and since you're not going to be able to control the officials, maybe there's something that you can control that will impact it. Might not have worked. Not a blanket defense of the refs by any means. Just throwing out some ideas.

I think what irks some is the calls that aren't called that makes the difference. Sure you have to adjust when they are calling it tight....but at the same time Pinson and Dru were drawing just as much contact and the refs allowed it as "good defense" or even called a charge on us. If I'm playing and the other team is allowed to slap, shove, and grab me around & under the basket....but I can't do the same to help my team I will get frustrated. Rightfully so.

I don't know why little players are protected, and big players like Tilmon need to almost bleed to have a call. At least twice I saw Tilmon shoved to the floor trying to get back on Defense, and then Auburn was playing 5 on 4. That's a great strategy right? Should we teach that too?

 

[bgramfan1]

The foul on Tilmon is a foul. He's in the circle. The loose ball foul on Mitch was awful. I know they called a similar one on Auburn a few minutes before which was also awful (happened on the wing outside the three point line. Dru and an Auburn guy went for the ball at basically the same time, looked like the Auburn guy got there a half second sooner, but kind of cut Dru's legs out and they called a foul on Auburn. I thought it was a bad call.

I feel two ways about this:

1) Cooper got a LOT of calls and many of them shouldn't have been called
2) Once it became obvious to everyone they were being called, you have to tell your guys to back off and do something different. I assume the counterargument here is you still have to play defense and at times Cooper looked to just be running into Mizzou players to create contact and I'm not sure how you avoid that and I'll listen to that argument on some of them too. I'm just saying that at some point it became obvious what the officiating was like and since you're not going to be able to control the officials, maybe there's something that you can control that will impact it. Might not have worked. Not a blanket defense of the refs by any means. Just throwing out some ideas.

No Gabe, that wasn't the problem. The problem is that it is a foul on one end and a play on or a foul the other way on the other end. I will say that I thought Cooper had a couple of cheep fouls against him, and that got him up to four fouls, but in no way did it make up the difference. Tilmon and Brown were getting mauled underneath the rim all damn night, as well as any other Tiger that took it to the paint. On the other end, we were getting called for fouls for just standing there with our arms up. The discrepancy between charges and blocks was huge. If you wanted to know whether it was a charge or a block, you just needed to know who had the ball. If it was Missouri, it was a charge, if it was Auburn it was a block. I don't think I have ever seen a game so one sided in that regard.

I wish I had time to put a video together with all of the block/charge calls, it would be eye opening and disgusting as well.

P.S. What were those fouls early on the lobs? Are we not allowed to go for a ball in mid air? That was some B.S.

 

[zoutiger22]

The foul on Tilmon is a foul. He's in the circle. The loose ball foul on Mitch was awful. I know they called a similar one on Auburn a few minutes before which was also awful (happened on the wing outside the three point line. Dru and an Auburn guy went for the ball at basically the same time, looked like the Auburn guy got there a half second sooner, but kind of cut Dru's legs out and they called a foul on Auburn. I thought it was a bad call.

I feel two ways about this:

1) Cooper got a LOT of calls and many of them shouldn't have been called
2) Once it became obvious to everyone they were being called, you have to tell your guys to back off and do something different. I assume the counterargument here is you still have to play defense and at times Cooper looked to just be running into Mizzou players to create contact and I'm not sure how you avoid that and I'll listen to that argument on some of them too. I'm just saying that at some point it became obvious what the officiating was like and since you're not going to be able to control the officials, maybe there's something that you can control that will impact it. Might not have worked. Not a blanket defense of the refs by any means. Just throwing out some ideas.

What about this one?

 

[drewayers24]

What about this one?

This is the foul I was talking about above. Worst call of the game and changed the whole outlook. They hit a 3 on the inbound play.

 

[mcangus52]

That should be in the textbook on how to be set and take a charge!

 

[seventhchildfifthson]

Thanks for the input, I have a friend who was a ref, and now evaluates refs at games at PSU in Pittsburg Kansas, always enjoy sitting with him and visiting about what he sees as a former ref.

Follow up again, do you believe refs ever look up at the scoreboard and see an imbalance in number of fouls on one team and even tend to even it up? Don't think it happened last night but I tend to believe it happens.

There is no zero sum in calling fouls. It is rare that each team commits same number of fouls. A referee should NEVER look at scoreboard for the foul ratio. As an independent arbiter, he/she she would never think "hey, we've called too many fouls on team X, and less on team Y". That, in and of itself, is wrong. Some teams foul more than others. Some teams are aggressive, some are not. That said, anything I have said is not valid when it comes to home games for KU. See, I just lost all objectivity. LOL.

 

[mitchbennett]

There are bad calls in college basketball and sometimes Mizzou is the beneficiary. I remember being in college and Thomas Gardner got a steal on the wing and took 3 steps out of bounds along the sideline while dribbling down for the dunk. I was standing on the floor and everyone saw it. The ref was right there. The opposing bench went nuts, but the ref swallowed his whistle. What's my point? There is a home court advantage, and Mizzou does benefit. There has been many games where the officials seemed to help Mizzou more than the other team.

 

[seventhchildfifthson]

What about this one?

It’s a blocking call. It’s correct.

 

[mitchbennett]

It’s a blocking call. It’s correct.

It is the correct call. He could have blown the whistle about 3 seconds earlier instead of seeing how the play went!

 

[bgramfan1]

It’s a blocking call. It’s correct.

Not according to all of the other charges called. He wasn't growing roots yet out of his feet, but he was as set or more set than any of the other charge calls.

 

[zoutiger22]

It’s a blocking call. It’s correct.

If you call a block whatever. Not 5 minutes after it happened though.

 

[seventhchildfifthson]

If you call a block whatever. Not 5 minutes after it happened though.

could have gone either way. Problem is he had to call something, so he called that. bang bang. Could have been a charge, also.

 

[Willis26]

could have gone either way. Problem is he had to call something, so he called that. bang bang. Could have been a charge, also.

He didn’t have to call something. That’s the problem with that way of thinking, If contact is made a call doesn’t have to be made.

 

[seventhchildfifthson]

It is the correct call. He could have blown the whistle about 3 seconds earlier instead of seeing how the play went!

He did not wait to see how the play went.

 

[seventhchildfifthson]

He didn’t have to call something. That’s the problem with that way of thinking, If contact is made a call doesn’t have to be made.

Let me re-phrase. There was contact, in the lane, and someone went down. The ref probably felt he needed to call something. It is bang, bang. I would have called something, and in that situation, probably a block. I had a Dad come up to me after a game with big old camcorder, trying to show me a re-play, as I was making my way to the locker room. . I told him I would shove it up his a$$. The AD laughed and told the guy to leave.

 

[mitchbennett]

He did not wait to see how the play went.

blue font on that last one.

It was 2 seconds, not three. And I don't think you know what he was or wasn't doing in terms of seeing how the play went. Nor do I, hence the blue font.